Marshall..

Let me first say.. I don't think you are whinning. I like a good debate and I think this is all healthy for the game as well.

Your words:
So if I understand this logic correctly, no trade should ever be vetoed including trades that involve collusion because collusion happens in real life and hey that's the way it goes.

Me:
I don't think you do understand the logic correctly. The trades I speak of are perfectly legal trades. I don't think we have a big collusion problem in PB. In the real world collusion is not legal and if you are caught you are penalized as you should also be in PB. The majority of what we would call bad trades are not collusion and not against the rules. They are just not smart trades. When managers don't make smart trades it does do harm to the whole league. I don't know about your leagues.. but in the ones I'm in the same managers seem to make the "bad" trades all the time. They end up giving up too much to the same owners in trade after trade. Why should all of the owvers in the league give up high FA picks to managers who can't make a solid trade? Why not just skip the middle man and give the picks directly to the owner who picks his pocket time after time? You know.. I'm not trying to stop teams from rebuilding. My team is rebuilding right now. However, it's getting so as there is nothing to look forward to in this game unless you are at the top of your division or the bottom.

Your words:
if you cap PB values. It means that "good" traders are going to have to make "good" trades much more frequently in order to maintain all star rosters.

and

Afterall, it doesn't take that many trades, if the gains are high enough, to turn a good team into an allstar team.

Me:
Well. I think your own words are making my point for me here.. but I'll fill in the blanks anyway. From what I can see.. the good traders are limited only by what there is to take from the poor ones. Give the poor traders more to give and they will give it.. the better ones will take it. As for my definition of a good trader.. "someone who improves the team they advocate through trading". No manager has the obligation or the right to decide for another manager what is good for thier team. Some of that responsibility falls to the commish but even he cannot force owners into a particular trading strategy. I also don't believe he has the time to properly analyze trade patterns and determine the impact a series of trades will have on the league as a whole. Very often each individual trade these managers make seems to be at least reasonable. Taken as a group the picture is totally different though. The best traders are not making an all-star team with one trade.. it's usually more like one or two a week for the duration of the season. Your approach seems to be one of challenging the best traders to make even more trades while at the same time throwing more bait into the hands of the worst traders. I don't know about anybody else, but I see a feeding frenzy about to happen. End result? The poor stay poor, the rich get richer and the rest of us pay the bill.

Your words:
I agree that the PB value system is another debate that the league needs to have in order to get a more enjoyable game, it should not be seen as a reason not to take actions to better the game in the mean time.

Me:
Will taking actions that build upon a system that is flawed really better the game in the mean time? I would say not. Build the foundation, then the house I say. I could go on and on about the issues I have with PB value, but I won't. I believe it is used within the game engine for certain things.. but I'd like to see it hidden from players all together. It's misleading to say the least and I believe that